Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

A forum for research and development of the user interface of FreeCAD
Forum rules
Be nice to others! Respect the FreeCAD code of conduct!
Post Reply
Hologram
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 3:05 pm

Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by Hologram »

Hi, as a new user, I found the ampersand in the keyboard shortcuts window confusing, see: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 65#p655665
Ampersand.png
Ampersand.png (252.05 KiB) Viewed 1327 times
Knowing what it is all about now, I decided to post it here. It might very well be one of those UI papercuts that everyone sees, but one that is unconsciously ignored during development.

If possible, I think it would be good to hide this from the user. Whenever I see videos of people using the software and see these sorts of things, it makes me question the state of the software and/ or whether there is something wrong with my install. This is one of the areas that could use some polish to improve readability, if it is easy to fix, that is. ;)

If possible, stray commas in front of keyboard shortcuts may also be removed. To me it would be more insightful to be prompted to use a 2 letter key combination when a command cannot be used with a single letter key.
User avatar
chennes
Veteran
Posts: 3876
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:38 pm
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Contact:

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by chennes »

This, I suppose, is the trouble with having a UI designed by coders instead of by UI designers :) -- you're right, the ampersands don't really faze me, I know what they are saying without really consciously thinking about it. We could pretty easily change the display so that those letters are bold or something, instead.
Chris Hennes
Pioneer Library System
GitHub profile, LinkedIn profile, chrishennes.com
User avatar
adrianinsaval
Veteran
Posts: 5541
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:15 pm

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by adrianinsaval »

common practice at least in the menu is to have those underlined I think
User avatar
onekk
Veteran
Posts: 6144
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:48 am
Contact:

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by onekk »

Probably the point is how the command window should display things, if "there is a convention" that an ampersand will make the following letter underlined in the menu appearance and you are in a "command modification" window, you are simply using "conventions" so let it as it is.

If the windows is "wrongly" showing the "command text" without having a "real need" to show "where ampersand is placed" modify the interface to get rid of the ampersand.

So what is the real scope of having the ampersand showed in this window.

To @Hologram why the ampersand could be guessed reading this page near the start providing you have pressed the more...:

https://doc.qt.io/qtforpython-5/PySide2 ... .html#more

I don0t see where is the confusion, once acquired his meaning. Your screenshot is clearly showing a "setting page" so it is not strange that a setting page will use some conventions. But having coded something in Qt probably I'm not very objective, as for me is simply an indicator where the underscore will go in the menu the user will see.
jriegel wrote:"Stop whining - start coding!"
Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
- Learning how to model with scripting.
- Various other stuffs.

Blog: https://okkmkblog.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Roy_043
Veteran
Posts: 8449
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by Roy_043 »

@onekk We really should not expect the average user to read the Qt documentation.
Hologram
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 3:05 pm

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by Hologram »

onekk wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:18 pm Probably the point is how the command window should display things, if "there is a convention" that an ampersand will make the following letter underlined in the menu appearance and you are in a "command modification" window, you are simply using "conventions" so let it as it is.

If the windows is "wrongly" showing the "command text" without having a "real need" to show "where ampersand is placed" modify the interface to get rid of the ampersand.

So what is the real scope of having the ampersand showed in this window.

To @Hologram why the ampersand could be guessed reading this page near the start providing you have pressed the more...:

https://doc.qt.io/qtforpython-5/PySide2 ... .html#more

I don0t see where is the confusion, once acquired his meaning. Your screenshot is clearly showing a "setting page" so it is not strange that a setting page will use some conventions. But having coded something in Qt probably I'm not very objective, as for me is simply an indicator where the underscore will go in the menu the user will see.
This is the first time I read or heard about this ampersand convention. Without that context, it appears as though something is wrong. I would expect full names to be shown without the ampersand, that is what I am used to from all the dozens of softwares I have used.

To return the question: what benefit does showing the ampersand have in the keyboard shortcut section if it is not used to modify the ampersand? Because if you want to see the Alt based shortcut, you would also need to know the shortcut of the dropdown menu that lists all the commands. Since I don't really see how the ampersand is useful to me here in any way, I instead perceive it as noise. It doesn't help that the order of commands in the list is different in the dropdown compared to the customise menu either:
Ampersand and order.png
Ampersand and order.png (151.75 KiB) Viewed 1168 times
Sometimes programmers see things differently, but as a non-programmer End-user, this is my point of view.
User avatar
Roy_043
Veteran
Posts: 8449
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by Roy_043 »

adrianinsaval wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:52 pm common practice at least in the menu is to have those underlined I think
The letters are underlined when you use the keyboard to open a menu.
User avatar
onekk
Veteran
Posts: 6144
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:48 am
Contact:

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by onekk »

Roy_043 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:24 pm @onekk We really should not expect the average user to read the Qt documentation.
I agree but as said above:
If the windows is "wrongly" showing the "command text" without having a "real need" to show "where ampersand is placed" modify the interface to get rid of the ampersand.
Tools >> Customize >> Keyboard is showing the "menu content" and in the "textboxes" shortcuts, there is a "real need" to show the ampersand in the "menu content" or not?

This fact probably is the only OT thing on which a "constructive dialog" has to be build.

I know that sometimes it is more easy to simply read commands and compose a list simply using the "text content" so the ampersand is appearing and creating these problems, so if this is the case, probably some code modifications should make FC better, if there is a real need, probably maybe a simple "note in the documentation" that warns the user that "what you see" has a precise meaning would be advisable.

All this in the intent to make FC a better software and not to make a flame war. (It if is not clear enough I don't want to be too much polemic, only a little :lol: )


Kind Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
- Learning how to model with scripting.
- Various other stuffs.

Blog: https://okkmkblog.wordpress.com/
User avatar
chennes
Veteran
Posts: 3876
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:38 pm
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Contact:

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by chennes »

My understanding is that it is not possible to change those via the GUI, right? It's basically hard-coded (though translations can modify them). So is there any real need in that window to display the hotkey?
Chris Hennes
Pioneer Library System
GitHub profile, LinkedIn profile, chrishennes.com
User avatar
adrianinsaval
Veteran
Posts: 5541
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:15 pm

Re: Remove stray (ampersand) symbols from view for the user

Post by adrianinsaval »

chennes wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:45 pm My understanding is that it is not possible to change those via the GUI, right? It's basically hard-coded (though translations can modify them). So is there any real need in that window to display the hotkey?
I don't think so plus these are different context for shortcuts so it's not even meaningful as just info, in customize you assign shortcuts to directly launch a command, the ampersand indicates the shortcut to launch the command while the menu is open while pressing the alt key.

It is important to know however that this seems to have been at least partially solved already in 0.21:
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 105902.png
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 105902.png (29.48 KiB) Viewed 1094 times
however it's still a problem in the "Commands" tab which btw, what the hell is it supposed to do? it doesn't have any controls, it appears to just be a list... I cannot see what purpose this tab serves
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 110047.png
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 110047.png (28.45 KiB) Viewed 1094 times
Also for some reason the addon manager is not in the "Tools" category as it should but in this weird <string> category:
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 110107.png
Captura de pantalla 2023-01-25 110107.png (8.35 KiB) Viewed 1094 times

Code: Select all

OS: Windows 10 Version 2009
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.21.0.31625 (Git)
Build type: Release
Branch: master
Hash: 72df7997700062b6a02f2f208e6291f64073fb88
Python 3.10.8, Qt 5.15.6, Coin 4.0.0, Vtk 9.1.0, OCC 7.6.3
Locale: C/Default (C) [ OS: Spanish/Paraguay (es_PY) ]
Installed mods: 
Post Reply