Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

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ChipsNChips
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:51 am

Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by ChipsNChips »

First, the information that you seem to want with every post. I have Free CAD 0.20.1 running under Windows 10.

Code: Select all

OS: Windows 10 Version 2009
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.20.1.29410 (Git)
Build type: Release
Branch: releases/FreeCAD-0-20
Hash: f5d13554ecc7a456fb6e970568ae5c74ba727563
Python 3.8.10, Qt 5.15.2, Coin 4.0.1, Vtk 8.2.0, OCC 7.6.3
Locale: English/United States (en_US)
Installed mods: 
  * Help 1.0.3
  * lattice2 1.0.0

I am new to Free CAD, but not to CAD in general which I have used for decades nor to 3D CAD. I have decided to try using Free CAD mostly due to the price issue as I am retired and on a limited income. Fusion 360 seems great and I like it. But they want to play games with the "free" version and I don't like that. And I am not stupid. I have a college degree and have worked for over 45 years as a TV engineer. I have designed and built TV systems as well as electronic equipment and other things. But enough about me.

I worked on my first part in Free CAD in the past week. It is a simple part but it took that long due to what finally came down to an issue of semantics. Specifically the use of the word "HOLE". I wanted to cut an opening in a disk shaped part, but it was not a round opening. So I created a sketch of the shape I needed and then tried to use that sketch to make the opening. In the Part Design workbench I selected the HOLE tool because I wanted a HOLE in my part. But it would not work. It worked just fine to make a threaded hole and that was great. But, in spite of the words "with the selected sketch" in the bubble help, it would not make a hole with an irregular shape from that sketch. And the error messages I got were not very useful in determining why. To me, for the past 75 years, a hole was an open space in something. And a pocket was in my pants, oh, OK a pocket is a cavity like opening, but not usually going all the way through something. Pockets have BOTTOMS. HOLES go through things to the other side.

I posted questions about my difficulty, but no one seemed able to help, they tried, but probably just assumed that I was using the POCKET tool. Finally, after watching a number of videos on Free CAD it dawned on me that "HOLE" does not mean hole in Free CAD. The word "POCKET" actually means hole. I wasted two days in making this discovery.

I would like to suggest a very simple change to the bubble help text for those two tools in the Part Design workbench to possibly save time for other new users. This marked up, screen capture shows it. Just a few extra words.
FreeCADSuggestedChange.jpg
FreeCADSuggestedChange.jpg (66.92 KiB) Viewed 726 times
This very simple change would have saved me two days of work. I have created bubble help text in other programs and believe it should only take a few minutes to incorporate it in the next or some future change.

Thanks!
drmacro
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Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by drmacro »

This trips up a lot of new users. Especially if they are learning with the "click until it works" method.

And it does not help that even the documentation wiki for the Hole tool does not make it clear that the circle or arc in the sketch is only used for the location and the hole tool defines the dimension of the hole.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
Bance
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Location: London

Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by Bance »

I think if you'd have bothered to look at the wiki you'd not have made this mistake.

However, it is a recurring subject in the fora. An adjustment to the tool tip might help.
GeneFC
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Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by GeneFC »

ChipsNChips wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:51 am First, the information that you seem to want with every post.
The thing you may not realize is that the various helpers on the forum look at many topics on the forum. It is unlikely that most will remember which OS and FC versions you are using, even if you posted a few hours ago.


I completely agree with you about the "hole" subject. This has been a naming disaster from the start. There was some discussion at the beginning, but the originator wanted that name. :?

Gene
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by adrianinsaval »

I suggest this tooltip for the hole feature:
Create a round hole at the center point(s) of the circle(s) in the selected profile.
may be extended with:
Standard or custom sizes available as well as countersink/counterbore
the pocket tooltip is fine IMO, in any case we should change all the tooltips to read "selected profile" instead of "selected sketch" since you can generally use any valid profile not just sketches.
ChipsNChips
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:51 am

Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by ChipsNChips »

Bance,

You seem to be a regular here and have responded to most or all of my threads. I thank you for that. But I am noticing that you never describe just how a person (I) should go about doing any of the things that you seem to think I should have done.

You suggest looking at "the wiki". But there is no link. I am new to Free CAD and really do not know just what "the wiki" is referring to.

Then, I would bet dollars to donuts that "the wiki" is a very long document or web page. Am I expected to read all of it each time I have a problem? Could you direct me to the information I needed in "the wiki"? I would like to read it now. (Never mind, I just did.)

And for future use, could you suggest a way to search "the wiki" for information on specific topics when I am not even aware of what to call the topic? I have tried a search of this BB before posting any of my questions. But the search facility here is not good. I state a search as precisely as I can and I get a message that all of my search terms are too common. Fewer words produce another error. More than ten words a third error. It does not even try to give me any results: just error messages. Someone really needs to make an adjustment there.
Bance wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:53 am However, it is a recurring subject in the fora. An adjustment to the tool tip might help.
I did not know it was a recurring subject in the "fora", whatever that may be. Again, I did search this BB but came up with nothing. This just makes my point. Apparently I am not the first or only one to have a problem with this terminology.

I am not trying to criticize Free CAD, just make a small suggestion for an improvement. The words "user friendly" come to mind.

PS: I did an internet search for "Free CAD wiki" and the first item returned was a Wikipedia article. I doubt that would have answered my question or given me any information on Free CAD's use of the word hole. The next return was for the Free CAD home page where there were at least four links. Each of those links led to more pages most with many more links. If I read them all, I would be dead before finishing.

Knowing what I know now, I went to the page describing the Hole tool in the Part Design workbench. And I read it. NO WHERE on that page is there any explicit statement that this tool only makes round holes. The page that describes the Pocket tool is better as it shows an illustration of a HOLE instead of a POCKET at the very top, which is a big clue. So after reading those two pages and some thought, I would have come to the realization that I came to via other means. But from my point of view and not knowing just what my problem was, how was I to come to those two specific pages out of the mountain of information in "the wiki".

So my question as to how I should have come across this information in "the wiki" still stands. But I do not think you or anyone else here can give me a satisfactory answer. And that is why I posted a question asking for help from those who were more familiar with Free CAD than I was.

Again, I made a small suggestion for an improvement. The developers can do what they want with it. I was in the process of submitting it as a new feature, but then saw a request that it be posted here first. So, here I am, following their request.

Oh, and I think I won that donut I bet about above. The wiki is a lot of web pages. A LOT!


Bance wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:53 am I think if you'd have bothered to look at the wiki you'd not have made this mistake.

However, it is a recurring subject in the fora. An adjustment to the tool tip might help.
ChipsNChips
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:51 am

Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by ChipsNChips »

The information:

I do not expect people to have such memories nor do I mind providing the information that the forum or developers want. But just how well is this rule enforced? I am going to look at 100 or more topics and may have some further comments on this. Or not.

As for the "hole" subject, I would agree that it is a disaster. I would love to read just why the originator wanted it that way. I am not just a 3D CAD person. I work with my hands. I made holes in things before IBM or Apple made their first PCs. I can assure you that in the real world this use of the word "hole" is not going to be generally understood.

I did not suggest changing the name of the tools themselves. That is already understood by many users and a change at this point could cause confusion. Perhaps in some later time. Perhaps in a new workbench. But I do not suggest it now. I only suggested better descriptions in the bubble help/tool tips.

Frankly, that originator was wrong and he/she did a very big dis-service to Free CAD. If you want people to use your program, it should be USER FRIENDLY, not just conforming to some imagined concept of one developer.

So, yes, can you give me a link to that conversation. Or at least a way to look for it. I would like to read it. Probably too late to comment.

And I do realize how much work has gone into Free CAD. I do sincerely appreciate all of it. My thanks to all involved.


GeneFC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:20 pm
ChipsNChips wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:51 am First, the information that you seem to want with every post.
The thing you may not realize is that the various helpers on the forum look at many topics on the forum. It is unlikely that most will remember which OS and FC versions you are using, even if you posted a few hours ago.


I completely agree with you about the "hole" subject. This has been a naming disaster from the start. There was some discussion at the beginning, but the originator wanted that name. :?

Gene
ChipsNChips
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:51 am

Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by ChipsNChips »

I tried to keep the help messages as short as possible. If they are too long, people will ignore them.

But if you are going to list all the features of the ROUND Hole tool, I would think that adding standard threads would be an important item. I like that ability in Free CAD. And it is so easy to use.

Composing things like this can be a bigger challenge than writing the code.


adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:46 pm I suggest this tooltip for the hole feature:
Create a round hole at the center point(s) of the circle(s) in the selected profile.
may be extended with:
Standard or custom sizes available as well as countersink/counterbore
the pocket tooltip is fine IMO, in any case we should change all the tooltips to read "selected profile" instead of "selected sketch" since you can generally use any valid profile not just sketches.
chrisb
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Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by chrisb »

In German there is a special word "Bohrung" for things made with a drill. My dictionary translates this to "hole" in the first place, and to "bore" in the second. Would the latter be better? Or is there even a better word?

Concerning the learn-by-click approach: I don't think that's a good one for learning 3D modeling, as there is a very high chance that you accustom bad habits. Or very bad habits. Although I think that learning on a real own project is usually efficient, I reommend to work through some Tutorials.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
jbraun
Posts: 252
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Re: Suggested Feature: Help Text for Pocket and Hole Tools in Parts Workbench

Post by jbraun »

chrisb wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:58 am In German there is a special word "Bohrung" for things made with a drill.
HaHa I worked with a very German machinist who spoke of what sounded close to 'boring' while spinning his index finger in a circle. It took a while to understand he meant making a hole with a drill. A poor English speaker but a wizard on a lathe.

ChipsNChips: Menu bar -> Help -> User Documentation goes to the User_Hub web page if you're on-line. The colorful icons on that page link to wiki pages. The wiki is never complete and often out of date but reading it beats spending 2 days confused over terminology, however poorly chosen those terms may be.
For English help on youtube check out Joko Engineering or Mango Jelly Solutions.
Look for recent videos, this software is updated at a rapid pace.
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